History: 20070610SkypeChatlog

((20070609SkypeChatlog|previous day))

[1:03:21 PM] mlpvolt says: hello tiki party
[1:04:10 PM] Xavier de Pedro says: hi mlpvolt....
[1:04:19 PM] Xavier de Pedro says: I wonder what's going on in Canada...
[1:04:38 PM] mlpvolt says: i can only vouch for toronto
[1:05:02 PM] mlpvolt says: we are a semi developed country
[1:05:12 PM] Xavier de Pedro says: Are you in Toronto?
[1:05:18 PM] mlpvolt says: yes
[1:05:33 PM] Xavier de Pedro says: I didn't know... so many Canadian :)
[1:05:42 PM] mlpvolt says: i just tuned in
[1:05:59 PM] Xavier de Pedro says: btw, do you have the link to the 1.6 html documentation?
[1:06:19 PM] Xavier de Pedro says: I know there is some where, but can't find it.... (to use it instead of pdf to grab content from there...)
[1:06:23 PM] mlpvolt says: is it linkde from doc.tiki?
[1:06:34 PM] Xavier de Pedro says: I don't think so...
[1:06:39 PM] Xavier de Pedro says: or at least I couldn't find it
[1:07:03 PM] mlpvolt says: i don't have it on my laptop
[1:07:10 PM] mlpvolt says: or i woulde upload it
[1:07:14 PM] Xavier de Pedro says: ok, no worries. 
[1:07:37 PM] Xavier de Pedro says: I keep working on http://tiki.org/TikiProfilesNGO
[1:08:23 PM] mlpvolt says: good idea - i'm trying to start a profile collection
[1:08:41 PM] mlpvolt says: what would be your wishlist for next tiki release?
[1:09:06 PM] Xavier de Pedro says: 1.10 :)
[1:09:38 PM] mlpvolt says: i'm hoping for 2 things
[1:09:58 PM] mlpvolt says: a) a tiki equilvalent of drupal's CCK
[1:10:04 PM] mlpvolt says: "content contruction kit"
[1:10:39 PM] mlpvolt says: and an ovrehaul of some admin stuff
[1:11:22 PM] mlpvolt says: like combining categories admin with groups admin
[1:11:42 PM] mlpvolt says: full on "organic groups" i think it has been called
[1:11:54 PM] Xavier de Pedro says: well, for me: Bitweaver install process included in Tikiwiki (as far as TikiFest198 is concerned)
[1:13:31 PM] mlpvolt says: there are many nice bitweaver things that could be broght over
[1:14:03 PM] mlpvolt says: i wonder now that tiki developer community is less fraught with stress
[1:14:17 PM] mlpvolt says: a bridge could be rebuilt between tiki and BW
[1:14:58 PM] Xavier de Pedro says: this bridge/joint venture could be lovely (for end users)
[1:15:58 PM] mlpvolt says: we should send a diplomat!
[1:16:46 PM] mlpvolt says: you are xavi, right?
[1:16:57 PM] Xavier de Pedro says: yes, I am...
[1:17:02 PM] mlpvolt says: you login with another handle as well
[1:17:16 PM] mlpvolt says: anyway thanks for your work on docs
[1:17:40 PM] Xavier de Pedro says: thanks... same to you, Michael
[1:17:53 PM] Xavier de Pedro says: (xavi = xavidp = Xavier de Pedro)
[1:17:54 PM] mlpvolt says: i still have to write up that interview to send to you on educational wiki.
[1:18:16 PM] mlpvolt says: ....in progress . . .
[1:18:24 PM] Xavier de Pedro says: :)
[1:18:52 PM] mlpvolt says: we've got a number or great new themes at themes. now
[1:19:30 PM] mlpvolt says: i would like to start collaborating on them and trading .tpl files
[1:19:57 PM] mlpvolt says: between them untill we have one new set of .tpl for moreneat 2.0
[1:20:20 PM] mlpvolt says: do liek the bitweaver boys did
[1:21:47 PM] Marc Laporte says: polom
[1:21:53 PM] mlpvolt says: marc!
[1:21:53 PM] Xavier de Pedro says: hi
[1:22:22 PM] mlpvolt says: i was just going to ask who's aggregated there in montreal
[1:22:45 PM] Marc Laporte says: http://de.tiki.org/tikidoc/
[1:22:53 PM] Marc Laporte says: Nelson & I today
[1:23:09 PM] Xavier de Pedro says: thanks marc
[1:23:22 PM] mlpvolt says: i'll update .doc accordingly
[1:23:35 PM] Xavier de Pedro says: ok
[1:24:17 PM] Marc Laporte says: http://doc.tiki.org/files/Tiki.pdf
[1:26:14 PM] Marc Laporte says: please review: http://doc.tiki.org/keywords
[1:28:04 PM] Marc Laporte says: and make sure all singular & plurals are OK
[1:28:20 PM] Marc Laporte says: Nelson will review all links in Tiki CVS
[1:28:33 PM] Marc Laporte says: Mike changed Article to Articles
[1:29:58 PM] mlpvolt says: i have a mission
[1:30:06 PM] mlpvolt says: i choose to accept
[1:30:08 PM] Nelson Ko says: hi mlp, we already have trackers. Can leverage that to do CCK like stuff through new plugin perhaps.
[1:30:36 PM] mlpvolt says: we already have all the elements of cck i think,
[1:30:44 PM] mlpvolt says: just need a front end interface
[1:30:52 PM] Nelson Ko says: which is a wiki plugin
[1:30:55 PM] mlpvolt says: the same for organic groups.
[1:31:07 PM] mlpvolt says: although . . .
[1:31:19 PM] Nelson Ko says: organic groups is a little more complicated
[1:31:30 PM] mlpvolt says: the one thing we don't have is "new page inherits permissions"
[1:31:32 PM] Nelson Ko says: because there are multiple options for impleentation
[1:31:49 PM] Marc Laporte added sylvie-g to this chat
[1:32:03 PM] mlpvolt says: hi sylvie
[1:32:26 PM] mlpvolt says: i was just going to say how lovely it would be to have the "new page inherits permissions"
[1:32:39 PM] mlpvolt says: i would put up a bounty for that for sure.
[1:32:52 PM] Nelson Ko says: new page inherits perms needs to take care of indiv page perms, category perms? It needs to be thought through
[1:32:57 PM] Xavier de Pedro says: mlpvolt: isn't it working in 1.10 in structures?
[1:33:17 PM] mlpvolt says: ?? (has no idea)
[1:33:23 PM] Nelson Ko says: new page within structures now inherits categories.
[1:33:38 PM] mlpvolt says: thats a pretty good start
[1:33:43 PM] Xavier de Pedro says: (I haven't tried myself, but I thought I read somebody did it...)... Maybe I was wrong
[1:33:44 PM] mlpvolt says: let me be explicit
[1:33:52 PM] Nelson Ko says: yes i did it
[1:34:00 PM] mlpvolt says: new page must have a 1st backlink
[1:34:34 PM] mlpvolt says: that backlink has a category, and maybe individual permissions applied
[1:34:38 PM] Nelson Ko says: but right now, it only inherits cats if you create the new page from the add page from within the structure. (and not through the edit page module).
[1:35:04 PM] Nelson Ko says: mpl, please elaborate
[1:35:26 PM] Xavier de Pedro says: well, at least this is working within workspaces.... (for sure, but that's a Mod right now, as you all know)
[1:35:40 PM] mlpvolt says: if organic groups is on, new page should copy the perms and categories from "parent" = 1st backlink
[1:37:25 PM] mlpvolt says: the end user story is "what starts in my private section (assigned to group)  in my private section" - automatically
[1:37:54 PM] Nelson Ko says: how does the backlink fit into this?
[1:37:54 PM] mlpvolt says: sorry what starts private stays private
[1:38:18 PM] mlpvolt says: 1st backlink is how I say page that new page was initially linked from
[1:38:54 PM] Nelson Ko says: so, if the page has not been linked to?
[1:38:56 PM] mlpvolt says: the "parent" page, though structures are not being used
[1:39:11 PM] mlpvolt says: orphan pages would escape inheritcance
[1:39:25 PM] mlpvolt says: which is as it should be :)
[1:40:04 PM] mlpvolt says: structures - as you noted - has been dealt with.
[1:40:08 PM] Nelson Ko says: what if the 1st backlink is other groups' page?
[1:40:18 PM] Nelson Ko says: or something like that
[1:40:33 PM] mlpvolt says: if they "created" it they own it
[1:40:54 PM] mlpvolt says: if permissions are set from the get go, nobody else ever sees it
[1:41:15 PM] Nelson Ko says: but when you create a page, links are not created automatically....
[1:41:36 PM] Nelson Ko says: except through the ? link
[1:41:47 PM] Nelson Ko says: so it only works through the ?
[1:41:50 PM] mlpvolt says: the one thing that has to be prevented is pages being "captured" (stolen and made private)
[1:43:54 PM] Nelson Ko says: Is itenough if  the "?" be made to "give inheritance" to the page that is being created if the new "inheit perms from page that is created from" feature is on?
[1:56:32 PM] Nelson Ko says: you still have the problem when two pages (created by people from 2 different groups) both have ? links to a pagename. The first person that uses the ? link "wins" the page name, and the other person may not be able to use it anymore :(
[1:59:27 PM] mlpvolt says: im back
[2:02:35 PM] mlpvolt says: good point. it should go the first backlink, if there is more than one, it should not inherit anything
[2:03:53 PM] Nelson Ko says: That won't work because users don't know if they are the first backlink or not.
[2:05:48 PM] Nelson Ko says: they will be totally confused, will they not?
[2:06:00 PM] mlpvolt says: having new pages accidentally made private to wrong group is not a big problem
[2:06:19 PM] mlpvolt says: this should be invisible to users
[2:06:41 PM] mlpvolt says: they should be able to assume that they have a private "space" (category)
[2:06:50 PM] mlpvolt says: and new pages are automatically added
[2:07:39 PM] mlpvolt says: "organic groups" means to me that there is a special type of categoryname = groupname
[2:08:34 PM] mlpvolt says: this is an "organic category"
[2:08:55 PM] mlpvolt says: other categories don't need to behave this way, maybe best that they dont
[2:08:56 PM] Nelson Ko says: one of the things I've discovered is taht users tend to reuse common pagenames
[2:09:08 PM] mlpvolt says: 1 sec
[2:09:11 PM] Nelson Ko says: they want to reuse them within their private groups
[2:14:19 PM] mlpvolt says: hmmm
[2:15:25 PM] mlpvolt says: i had written down once that it would be nice to have a namespace to folders, or namespace to categories capability
[2:16:09 PM] mlpvolt says: already we use pagename prefixes for "external wiki" feature
[2:16:35 PM] mlpvolt says: so everybody wants mygroup:todo
[2:16:53 PM] Dave Thacker says: polom
[2:17:00 PM] mlpvolt says: hi dave
[2:17:47 PM] Dave Thacker says: so what are we doing 
[2:18:03 PM] mlpvolt says: discussing "organic groups"
[2:18:24 PM] mlpvolt says: do you have a scrollback available?
[2:19:01 PM] mlpvolt says: marc gave me a mission to audit doc:keywords
[2:19:05 PM] Dave Thacker says: scrolling back now....
[2:20:23 PM] Dave Thacker says: is everything on text or is there a conference call running?
[2:20:41 PM] mlpvolt says: nelson an i were dicussing something that was approaching a full blown "wiki farm" - which i'm not sure is needed
[2:20:49 PM] mlpvolt says: no cc, just here afaik
[2:21:02 PM] Dave Thacker says: ok,
[2:21:18 PM] mlpvolt says: i think organic groups is very important though.
[2:21:29 PM] Dave Thacker says: My wish for 1.10 is a guided initial setup. 
[2:21:37 PM] mlpvolt says: follows from tiki's core competecy i think which is groupware
[2:22:11 PM] mlpvolt says: an interview type which chooses a profile?
[2:22:13 PM] mlpvolt says: smart idea
[2:22:26 PM] Dave Thacker says: yes, an interview!
[2:22:56 PM] mlpvolt says: i think the profile ought to include some default content
[2:23:02 PM] mlpvolt says: mostly howtos
[2:23:25 PM] Dave Thacker says: wow! yes I like that too!   
[2:24:11 PM] mlpvolt says: we could promote the development of tutorials in doc and then ship them with the cvs
[2:24:44 PM] mlpvolt says: they would be added with the DB install script
[2:25:20 PM] mlpvolt says: need to help people overcome the "great white wall"
[2:25:26 PM] mlpvolt says: new tiki no content
[2:26:16 PM] mlpvolt says: far better to create categories and structures cause they can be easily renamed
[2:27:03 PM] mlpvolt says: segue . . . .
[2:27:33 PM] mlpvolt says: on friday i responded to my first user "ticket" on doc:wiki problems
[2:27:55 PM] mlpvolt says: amazingly enough - if you write it people sometimes do follow instructions.
[2:36:02 PM] Dave Thacker says: sorry afk for a few mins.
[2:40:09 PM] mlpvolt says: i think i should rename doc:group to "groups"
[2:40:35 PM] Marc Laporte says: singular until is hurts
[2:40:39 PM] Marc Laporte says: a group
[2:40:42 PM] Marc Laporte says: a permission
[2:40:43 PM] Marc Laporte says: a user
[2:40:45 PM] Marc Laporte says: :)
[2:40:55 PM] Marc Laporte says: an article
[2:41:05 PM] Marc Laporte says: a blog
[2:41:09 PM] Marc Laporte says: the blog feature
[2:41:15 PM] Marc Laporte says: the article system
[2:41:17 PM] Marc Laporte says: :) :)
[2:41:34 PM] mlpvolt says: i can live with that but there is rebellion on the eb
[2:41:48 PM] Nelson Ko says: articles is better
[2:41:59 PM] mlpvolt says: here they come!
[2:42:04 PM] mlpvolt says: :)
[2:42:05 PM] Marc Laporte says: LOL
[2:42:13 PM] Marc Laporte says: ok, let me face the EB
[2:42:18 PM] Marc Laporte says: face my execution!
[2:42:22 PM] mlpvolt says: make your case:
[2:42:47 PM] Marc Laporte says: don't give the refer to higher authority!
[2:42:57 PM] Marc Laporte says: just change the doc.tiki.org/keyword
[2:43:01 PM] Marc Laporte says: all of theme
[2:43:03 PM] Dave Thacker says: singular is easier to keep consistent
[2:43:07 PM] Marc Laporte says: all of them
[2:43:25 PM] Marc Laporte says: Whatever draws consensus
[2:43:51 PM] Dave Thacker says: yes, once the decision is made, we need to etch it in sand.
[2:43:58 PM] Marc Laporte says: and whatever people would put in search engine
[2:44:08 PM] Marc Laporte says: ex: bug tracker
[2:44:16 PM] Marc Laporte says: people won't put trackers
[2:44:26 PM] mlpvolt says: question . . .
[2:44:57 PM] mlpvolt says: is it easier to force a rule on pagenames, or a rule about redirects
[2:45:48 PM] Dave Thacker says: hmmmm, redirects are a good way to "fix" pagename problems.... What would the redirect rule say?
[2:45:55 PM] mlpvolt says: if you place a redirect from blogs to blog, marc, it effectively blocks people from renaming pages wrong
[2:46:19 PM] mlpvolt says: sylvie wrote a great redirect rule for me
[2:46:29 PM] mlpvolt says: REDIRECT:((pagename)
[2:46:44 PM] mlpvolt says: i mean exactly
[2:46:55 PM] mlpvolt says: REDIRECT:((pagename))
[2:47:08 PM] mlpvolt says: it works, and it is human readable.
[2:47:29 PM] Dave Thacker says: so could we say always redirect to singular? 
[2:47:50 PM] Dave Thacker says: or always redirect to valid keyword.
[2:48:03 PM] mlpvolt says: redirect to whatever the page is called.
[2:48:49 PM] Dave Thacker says: The base page should match the keyword, right? ( or am I getting ahead of the process)
[2:48:59 PM] mlpvolt says: i think so
[2:49:36 PM] mlpvolt says: i just edited homepage and it made a heckuv a lot of sense to me that we have both the old (heriarchical) toc and the alphabetized keyword list
[2:49:44 PM] mlpvolt says: nice redundancy there
[2:49:57 PM] Dave Thacker says: yes, they both serve a purpose
[2:50:04 PM] Marc Laporte sent file "pluralWikiWords.jpg" to members of this chat
[2:50:54 PM] mlpvolt says: marc - how do i obtain that file exactly?
[2:51:12 PM] Marc Laporte says: you should have a Skype popup
[2:51:22 PM] Marc Laporte says: which you need to accept
[2:51:29 PM] mlpvolt says: so i do . . .
[2:52:02 PM] Dave Thacker says: I've got the jpg open.   Will get called to Sunday dinner in 10 mins or so....
[2:52:53 PM] mlpvolt says: dave: sunday dinner? where are you living, somewhere in the middle of the atlantic?
[2:53:08 PM] mlpvolt says: tell them youre not hungry yet
[2:53:30 PM] Dave Thacker says: that would offend SWMBO greatly. 
[2:54:16 PM] Dave Thacker says: Are you asking how that feature works?  I've never tested it.
[2:54:39 PM] mlpvolt says: marc invokes the evil name: wikiwords
[2:56:06 PM] mlpvolt says: camelcase must die.
[2:56:30 PM] mlpvolt says: marc that feature must be destroyed. :0
[2:56:41 PM] mlpvolt says: failed smiley
[2:56:46 PM] Dave Thacker says: Do you want to remove the feature?  I see no problem with it.  
[2:56:53 PM] Dave Thacker says: removing it.   
[2:56:57 PM] mlpvolt says: i'm venting
[2:57:22 PM] mlpvolt says: camelcase should be renamed on sight
[2:57:27 PM] mlpvolt says: is my opinion
[2:58:01 PM] mlpvolt says: allowing hardspaces is just a distraction.
[2:58:26 PM] Dave Thacker says: ok CamelCase is one thing, but we're discussing plurals, right?   How does that plural feature work?
[2:58:36 PM] Nelson Ko says: a lot of true blue wiki pages like camelcase, so it could be another option for later version :)
[2:58:52 PM] mlpvolt says: oh :)
[2:58:54 PM] Nelson Ko says: I am looking at plural/singular code now. give me some time to see how it wors
[2:59:11 PM] Nelson Ko says: I mean true blue wiki people. lol
[2:59:36 PM] Marc Laporte says: I think WikiWords should exist to create links but when the texte is shown, it should show without CamelCase (but with hyperlink)
[2:59:53 PM] Marc Laporte says: so it still looks good when you print the page
[3:00:53 PM] mlpvolt says: I think the plurals rule is
[3:01:33 PM] mlpvolt says: if creating version 1 of a wiki page
[3:02:00 PM] mlpvolt says: and last letter of pagename is "s" or "es"
[3:02:17 PM] mlpvolt says: and pagename minus s or es exists
[3:02:51 PM] Dave Thacker says: Ok, I have to go for awhile.   If anyone is around when I get back,  I'd like a quick lesson in how to build links from forms to help pages.   I want the parameters on the login config page clickable in the same way that the features page is.  
[3:02:59 PM] Dave Thacker says: bbl in 60 mins or so....
[3:03:32 PM] mlpvolt says: promt user that singular exists
[3:04:42 PM] mlpvolt says: marc, what screenshot software do you use?
[3:05:55 PM] mlpvolt says: highlight with dropshadow . . . you dog
[3:38:13 PM] Nelson Ko says: the wikiwords plural thing converts something like MyPages to link to MyPage when content is parsed for display
[3:40:04 PM] mlpvolt says: ??
[3:40:25 PM] mlpvolt says: oh i get it
[3:40:49 PM] Nelson Ko says: so it shows as MyPages in the text, but the link is actually to tiki-admin.php?page=MyPage
[3:41:03 PM] mlpvolt says: its the ((mypages)) (which doesnl;t exist links to ((mypage)) which does
[3:41:21 PM] Nelson Ko says: that is not there at present, but is not too difficult to add I think
[3:41:53 PM] Marc Laporte says: Mike: FastStone Capture  -> screenshot, anotate and email easily
[3:42:12 PM] mlpvolt says: ok, i got that
[3:42:29 PM] mlpvolt says: but i just discovered v5 which supports dropshadow
[3:42:33 PM] Nelson Ko says: It also converts MyStories to link to tiki-index.php?MyStory, MyMistresses to MyMistress, and My Boxes to MyBox
[3:42:45 PM] Marc Laporte says: LOL
[3:43:11 PM] mlpvolt says: neslon, i still dont get it.
[3:43:20 PM] mlpvolt says: when you type .... it does ???
[3:43:26 PM] Nelson Ko says: INo.
[3:43:52 PM] Nelson Ko says: IIf you have a MyStories in a wiki page, normally it will link to the MyStories page when you click on it.
[3:44:12 PM] Nelson Ko says: But if this feature is on, it will link to the MyStory page instead, although it remains displayed as MyStories in the text
[3:46:59 PM] mlpvolt says: so this is an auto-linking feature
[3:47:42 PM] Nelson Ko says: yes
[3:47:51 PM] Nelson Ko says: no
[3:48:00 PM] mlpvolt says: if i add ""see my blog" to a page and page=blog exists then blog becomes a link
[3:48:01 PM] Nelson Ko says: I mean, WikiWords is an auto linking mechanism
[3:48:25 PM] mlpvolt says: adding plurals means that blogs also becomes a link
[3:48:40 PM] Marc Laporte says: Dave you need to modify: templates/tiki-admin-include-wiki.tpl
[3:49:04 PM] Nelson Ko says: there are 2 ways to "autolink" in Tiki.
[3:49:20 PM] mlpvolt says: yes Hotwords i htink it is called, right?
[3:49:22 PM] Nelson Ko says: The 1st is through WikiWords, also known as CamelCase in many wikis
[3:49:29 PM] Nelson Ko says: The second is through HotWords
[3:49:33 PM] mlpvolt says: ok three ways
[3:49:40 PM] Nelson Ko says: What's the third way?
[3:49:50 PM] mlpvolt says: nevermind
[3:49:58 PM] mlpvolt says: ")
[3:50:11 PM] Nelson Ko says: The plural feature that I described only works for WikiWords now
[3:50:18 PM] mlpvolt says: click
[3:50:29 PM] Nelson Ko says: For HotWords, you specify the URL for the hotword
[3:50:36 PM] Nelson Ko says: in admin...Hotwords
[3:50:56 PM] mlpvolt says: which works without a url if it is a local page i think
[3:51:27 PM] Nelson Ko says: IWhen I tried to save a hotword with a blank URL, it gives me an error message telling me I need to provide one.
[3:51:34 PM] mlpvolt says: which - btw is a good ting to do with out keywords list in doc:tiki
[3:52:09 PM] mlpvolt says: i bet it depends if you have A REWRITE RULE GOING
[3:52:21 PM] mlpvolt says: caps unintended
[3:53:25 PM] mlpvolt says: or maybe not.
[3:54:15 PM] Nelson Ko says: One thing you might have to think about when choosing page names  is that I think (I may be wrong) that it is easier for the machine to convert plural to singular than from singlular to plural in English.
[3:56:06 PM] mlpvolt says: i think you are right but there would be false positives
[3:56:17 PM] mlpvolt says: i think manually redirecting is the best way to go.
[3:57:06 PM] mlpvolt says: all doc admins / developers should just have a habit that
[3:57:17 PM] mlpvolt says: a) they quick edit instead of search on doc two
[3:57:46 PM] mlpvolt says: b) if the page DNE they create it and put either a soft or hard redirect
[3:58:14 PM] mlpvolt says: to the appropriate place in teh documentation.
[3:58:38 PM] mlpvolt says: it doesn't take that long to get a robust ontology going
[4:05:38 PM] Nelson Ko says: I linke manual redicting as a principle, but I don't like tha page poluution that comes with it, e.g. in search results or page lists
[4:05:58 PM] Nelson Ko says: thinking of a technical way to reduce this technically that is not too CPU/DB intensive
[4:06:27 PM] mlpvolt says: hmmm.
[4:09:19 PM] mlpvolt says: is there a way to do a robots.txt inline in the page?
[4:11:53 PM] mlpvolt says: redirected pages can also be assigned to a category that only admins can see.
[4:12:50 PM] Nelson Ko says: and what does that redirection to a category that only admins can see do?
[4:14:15 PM] mlpvolt says: hmmm. i guess unless redirect works before permissions check (unlikely) it would not work at all.
[4:15:05 PM] mlpvolt says: if they don't see the page in search results=great
[4:15:38 PM] mlpvolt says: if they don't arrive at the page which is supposed to be redirecting, but instead get a permissions error
[4:15:50 PM] mlpvolt says: that is not a very helpful redirect. :)
[4:14:25 PM] Dave Thacker says: returns
[4:18:04 PM] Dave Thacker says: yes, marc I prefer singular.  The most important question, based on yesterday's seminar. is "What does the user prefer" or "What will they type in the search engine.  Do we have a search history?
[4:21:12 PM] mlpvolt says: oooh excellent question
[4:21:22 PM] Dave Thacker says: (coffee) after dinner coffee in hand.  
[4:22:38 PM] Marc Laporte says: http://tiki.org/tiki-search_stats.php
[4:22:55 PM] Dave Thacker pops it open
[4:23:03 PM] mlpvolt says: dave, i note you haven't joined the EB meeting thisw month.
[4:23:44 PM] mlpvolt says: right now we have 1 vote for hard rule singular
[4:23:53 PM] mlpvolt says: 2 votes for natural speech
[4:23:54 PM] Dave Thacker says: I think I answered three questions and then was drawn into a long chat with Marc and Gary....
[4:24:15 PM] mlpvolt says: and one fence sitter (me)
[4:24:43 PM] Dave Thacker says: Let me see if I can get into doc's search stats
[4:24:45 PM] mlpvolt says: which is strange because i'm usually such an opinionated jerk. :)
[4:26:40 PM] Dave Thacker says: http://doc.tiki.org/tiki-search_stats.php  seems to favor the singular
[4:27:05 PM] Dave Thacker says: If you can't see it let me know and I'll pastebin it. 
[4:27:18 PM] Marc Laporte says: can be deleted later: http://doc.tiki.org/tiki-index.php?page=SearchStatsOnTwo
[4:27:49 PM] mlpvolt says: astrazenca?
[4:29:03 PM] mlpvolt says: well we should take the first 200 on that list and paste them into ((keywords))
[4:29:19 PM] Dave Thacker says: agreed.  
[4:29:36 PM] mlpvolt says: incredible efficiency
[4:29:38 PM] Dave Thacker says: Interesting   Trackers shows up highest as a plural
[4:30:17 PM] Dave Thacker says: permissions-1833  permission-1511
[4:30:31 PM] Dave Thacker says: that's pretty close
[4:30:39 PM] mlpvolt says: articles beats article
[4:30:48 PM] Marc Laporte says: hahahahahahaha
[4:30:48 PM] mlpvolt says: by a nose
[4:30:54 PM] Marc Laporte says: empirical evidence!
[4:31:05 PM] mlpvolt says: feels good eh
[4:31:30 PM] mlpvolt says: how to kill a good argument
[4:32:23 PM] Dave Thacker says: by how much?
[4:33:02 PM] mlpvolt says: ....doing spreadsheet magic to include all keywords in ((keywords))
[4:33:06 PM] Dave Thacker says: admin is a highly ranked search term.  which kills my argument for avoiding tech speak
[4:33:26 PM] Dave Thacker pedals the bicycle to charge mlpvolts spreadsheet wand
[4:34:19 PM] Dave Thacker says: srcolls up to remember what Nelson said about conversion
[4:34:34 PM] Marc Laporte says: hehe, so can we put a deadline of Tuesday for choosing Singular vs Plural for all words currently on keywords so we can update the 1.9.8 tiki links to docs?
[4:35:03 PM] Marc Laporte says: we don't have to perfect, but let's be consistent :)
[4:36:34 PM] Nelson Ko says: I am in favour of having redirects for all of these, since a lot of these searches are pretty close sing/plural.
[4:36:43 PM] Marc Laporte says: consistant between our docs/dev and tiki spp
[4:36:50 PM] Marc Laporte says: consistant between our docs/dev and tiki app
[4:36:58 PM] Nelson Ko says: As for the page pollution - I will think of how to reduce it.
[4:38:18 PM] Dave Thacker says: mlpvolt:  are you still fence sitting, or are you coming over to the singular dark side :)
[4:38:36 PM] Marc Laporte says: hahahahah
[4:39:01 PM] Nelson Ko says: I am such a bad environmentalist :) supporting page polluiton now. lol
[4:39:03 PM] Marc Laporte says: who are the "2 votes for natural speech" ?
[4:39:15 PM] Nelson Ko says: pollute first, solve pollution later lol
[4:39:21 PM] mlpvolt says: chiba and xavi
[4:39:52 PM] Marc Laporte says: natural speech: where can I find definition?
[4:40:07 PM] Marc Laporte says: it is a bit subjective, no?
[4:40:21 PM] mlpvolt says: marc: i think that would e our list of search results
[4:40:41 PM] Marc Laporte says: yes, search results is king
[4:40:46 PM] mlpvolt says: natural speech = most common keyword
[4:40:52 PM] Marc Laporte says: Alain said: listen to your users
[4:41:01 PM] mlpvolt says: i am taking the first 250 for ((keywords))
[4:41:11 PM] mlpvolt says: I am a user!
[4:41:15 PM] mlpvolt says: ha
[4:41:40 PM] mlpvolt says: new issue:
[4:41:49 PM] Marc Laporte says: image gallery vs image galleries ?
[4:41:55 PM] mlpvolt says: i would like to discuss user support
[4:42:06 PM] Dave Thacker says: I could support trackers over tracker and permissions or permission if that's what search results say.
[4:42:38 PM] mlpvolt says: note this page: http://doc.tiki.org/tiki-index.php?page=Wiki+Problems&bl
[4:42:55 PM] mlpvolt says: our online "help system" now consists of
[4:43:16 PM] mlpvolt says: "triage desk" = shoutbox
[4:43:34 PM] mlpvolt says: forums - users helping users
[4:44:51 PM] mlpvolt says: wiki docs
[4:44:54 PM] mlpvolt says: irc
[4:45:04 PM] Marc Laporte says: "natural speech" = singular in 85%+ of the cases
[4:45:20 PM] Marc Laporte says: so, we are only debating 10-15% of keywords
[4:45:38 PM] mlpvolt says: most popular wins. i don't care if it is by two votes
[4:45:57 PM] mlpvolt says: (marc is searching for "article" as we speak)
[4:46:22 PM] mlpvolt says: the question is where do we want users to go first?
[4:46:59 PM] mlpvolt says: ideally i would say their first stop - is keyword search
[4:47:08 PM] Marc Laporte says: LOL
[4:47:45 PM] mlpvolt says: if that doesn't help try editing appropriate troubleshooting page
[4:47:56 PM] Dave Thacker says: I would flip that on it's head.   Where do users want to go first?  Usually IRC because they feel they will get quick feedback.  
[4:48:23 PM] mlpvolt says: but thats where we don't want them to do because it doesn't support documentation.
[4:48:37 PM] mlpvolt says: iff
[4:49:09 PM] mlpvolt says: all troubleshooting pages are pagewatched by most devs and admins
[4:49:12 PM] mlpvolt says: and
[4:49:32 PM] mlpvolt says: two and doc two funnel users to troubleshooting pages
[4:49:54 PM] mlpvolt says: responses will be more quick than forcuing users to figure out irc
[4:50:03 PM] mlpvolt says: (which is not fun)
[4:50:51 PM] Nelson Ko says: gotta go now, so is the verdict of the vote natural speech according to search results?
[4:51:10 PM] Dave Thacker says: IMO, the pages approach ends up re-creating a lot of the wheel forums has already built.
[4:51:16 PM] mlpvolt says: in the event that troubleshooting page can't be edited to provide a relatively quick solution, we elevate it to a support ticked on dev.two
[4:51:18 PM] Dave Thacker says: Nelson: Yes for me
[4:51:29 PM] Marc Laporte says: Nelson: yes for me
[4:51:42 PM] mlpvolt says: so decided
[4:52:34 PM] Marc Laporte says: Mike : you in charge of renaming all the pages on dev.two and doc.tw.o and make sure they are in sync?
[4:52:35 PM] mlpvolt says: forums should be moved to doc site, and hopefully we can get hotlinks to work there.
[4:52:59 PM] mlpvolt says: everytime somebody mentions! an existing page, it links there.
[4:53:14 PM] Marc Laporte says: Mike: we need to stabilizing page names ASAP
[4:54:33 PM] Marc Laporte says: everyone: we are leaving to BBQ now. It's a great pleasure to be working with you all, eating our dogfood and improve Tiki app & tiki community
[4:54:45 PM] mlpvolt says: well since we all know the rule now - that should be that.
[4:55:04 PM] mlpvolt says: i have to go - marc can you broadcast the decision to the dev listserve
[4:55:41 PM] Dave Thacker says: I can send out the dev mail now.
[4:55:45 PM] Marc Laporte says: tks Dave
[4:55:48 PM] mlpvolt says: ps. am i the only one who has problems with bouncing posts on dev?
[4:55:56 PM] Marc Laporte says: me too, it bounces
[4:56:01 PM] Marc Laporte says: all of SF
[4:56:08 PM] Marc Laporte says: Sourceforge hates me
[4:56:54 PM] mlpvolt says: a stale blacklist i guess
[4:57:13 PM] Dave Thacker says: enjoy BBQ guys.
[4:57:28 PM] mlpvolt says: why not use a different listserve host?
[4:57:39 PM] mlpvolt says: yea i go bbq too.
[4:57:46 PM] mlpvolt says: Dave, it is dinnertime now.
[4:57:50 PM] mlpvolt says: :)
[4:57:53 PM] mlpvolt says: see
[4:57:55 PM] Marc Laporte says: Mike: we could but priority is 198 and doc.tw.o
[4:57:59 PM] Marc Laporte says: :)
[4:58:29 PM] mlpvolt says: i was thinking google group
[4:58:35 PM] mlpvolt says: ok must run bye
[4:58:45 PM] Dave Thacker says: bye
[4:59:03 PM] Marc Laporte thinks we should use Tiki groups
[8:44:04 PM] Marc Laporte says: If at all possible, mailing-list-to-forum-gateway